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Talk:Rapture Civil War
Spoilers, spoilers, spoilers! Great article, but this is going to need one humongous spoilers tag before hand. It adresses practically every spoiler in the first game! Gee, other than the construction of the place, is there really anything else that makes up Rapture's history? ---Binoculars 01:08, January 11, 2010 (UTC) Wow, this article is so expertly written! Kudos to the person/people who took part in its creation, I am really impressed! Awesome job! *Swami Bow* --Epstein CoR 03:06, January 11, 2010 (UTC)Epstein CoR Thanks Swami! You're too kind. Thanks to the editors who helped fix my typos and such. --KyburzCOR 03:09, January 11, 2010 (UTC) Dr Lamb was waiting for both sides to wipe each other out and then she takes over when the surviving faction was at it's weakest, recruiting those willing to join her, eliminating those who don't. Vae Infectus 23:05, June 10, 2010 (UTC) I'm curious... I just have a couple of questions about the events leading up to the civil war. Firstly, was rapture physically deteriorating like it is in the game before the riots? Or is that just a lack of maintainance due to the lack of an organized society? Also, were the physically deformed crazed splicers running rampant and wrecking havoc before the riots? Were they just creating anarchy amongst all the elite, high society geniuses? That would suck if there was all that crime from splicers while all the well to do people just kept going on with their lives because they thought they were untouchable. What would have happened to all the geniuses and upper class after the chaos began? Would they have evacuated? Or sought refuge in all their luxury apartments? Or gone fricking mad like sander cohen? Or all killed by the dplicers who now over populate the area? Tell me! Rapture was slowly deteriorating, but the effects only became visible after the Civil War, when everybody stopped maintaining the districts. Before the riots, there were a few incidents related to splicing but it wasn't widespread. Splicing wasn't exclusive to the lower and middle classes. In fact, the rich people had enough money to splice more and earlier (hence their increased toughness in Olympus Heights), although before the riots it was more of a fun pastime/aesthetic thing rather than weaponization. Most of the geniuses, like Reed Wahl, went insane pretty quickly due to an overdose on Brain Boost Gene Tonics. --Willbachbakal 14:41, October 11, 2010 (UTC) Thankyou, that was very insightful. Does that mean that the numerous splicers you fight in bioshock and bioshock 2 were perhaps the brightest and most brilliant people on earth? Not necessarily. A lot were, mainly the guys with their own businesses, but a lot of the people were there either because they shared Ryan's ideals, or simply because they didn't like the world on the surface (like Sofia Lamb). Most of the Splicers you fight in the two games were like that, although there is also a significant portion of Splicers who came to Rapture just to get rich, one way or another. The scientists in Minerva's Den, though, were definitely among the smartest people on the planet. --Willbachbakal 11:30, October 12, 2010 (UTC) Bioshock two back story We are leaving out some vital stuff discovered in game the Persephone detention facility should be referenced earlier this population of undesirables did not come from nowhere. --FossilLord 01:20, April 15, 2013 (UTC) ---- Ryan not allowed to win whatever he did Page illustrates that Ryan was 'damned if he did and damned if he didnt" by saying that Ryan could have interfered in the ADAM sistuation (implying he should have) and later calling him a tyrant for finally taking action when the threat was proven. Wasnt it McDonagh who said to Hand Fontaine Futuristsics over to Atlas's boys ??? Thats the kind of advice Ryan got ??? Thens theres that absurd suicide when he had Jack in control and Atlas was on his last legs -- Ryan was winning and finally could start rebuilding his City and Ryan commits suicide ??? "Your my biggest disappointment" to a 4 year old programmed pawn assassin under his enemy's mind control ... yeah very dramatic, but well on the far side of rediculousness. --- "Things seemed to be going well enough for Atlas that McDonagh urged Ryan to seek a negotiated peace, offering Fontaine Futuristics to Atlas." This is a bit weird/bizaare - McDonagh resigns from the Council over the issue of 'nationalization' , yet he suggests giving Fontaine Futuristics to Atlas -- who has NO claim on it and at that very moment had splicers out murdering Constables and citizens in the streets?? Seriously, Ryan should have offered the running of FF to McDonagh to oversee for the interim of the emergency (the murderous Splicer plague, the breaking down of order, the growing addiction and insanity of the populace from abusing ADAM products, the disruptions ruining the economy/production and access to basic neccessities). But no, Rapture MUST Fail.(or else we would not be able to slaughter multitudes of mutants without guilt in a shoot-em-up game). Testxyz (talk) 10:49, January 11, 2014 (UTC) - ::: "interfered in the ADAM situation (implying he should have) and later calling him a tyrant for finally taking action when the threat was proven." : Ryan didn't act until the situation was out of control, and reacted in a way that was both violent and compromised the ideals he had previously clung to. Hence the characterization. ::: "Ryan was winning and finally could start rebuilding his City and Ryan commits suicide ???" : Jack was coming to murder him, and had just torn his way through everything Ryan had to throw at him. The guy takes down Big Daddies single-handledly. There was no "winning" involved in this scenario for Ryan, so he decides to take them all with him. ::: "McDonagh resigns from the Council over the issue of 'nationalization' yet he suggests giving Fontaine Futuristics to Atlas -- who has NO claim on it and at that very moment had splicers out murddering Constables and citizens in the street??" : It was a move for appeasement. Atlas has the population behind him, so playing to his desires held the potential to end things much sooner. ::: "Seriously Ryan should have offered running FF to McDonagh to oversee it for the interim of the emergency (the murderous Splicer plague, the breaking down of order, the growing insanity of the populace fom abusing ADAM products, the disruptions ruining the economy)." : McDonagh betrayed Ryan, in Ryan's eyes. Why would he turn over anything to him, if he couldn't trust the man absolutely? At that point, he's so paranoid that he can't trust anyone, which is actually incredibly realistic for people in positions of power--particularly threatened ones. ::: "But no, Rapture MUST Fail.(or else we wouldnt be able to slaughter multitudes of mutants without guilt in a shoot-em-up game)." : You seem determined not to like this game. Why? : Molotov.cockroach (talk) 04:43, July 16, 2013 (UTC) : : Much supposition .... : "Ryan didn't act until the situation was out of control" ' : -- and at what point was he going to make the city go cold turkey and cut off their ADAM ?? (BTW that would be interfering with Fontaines business operation - look how he was called a 'tyrant' for doing that later - against the Philosophy and all that. : And the game plot had this ADAM sickness creep up conveniently (all the insanity and deforming it cause in people, as well as the major level addiction reaction 'riots' etc...) When exactly was this point he was supposed to act ?? : With Ryan looking for a reason to shut Fontaine down (for whatever reason) WOULDNT HE leap at declaring ADAM a poison and threat to public health and safety ???? Those are valid reasons which he would have support by the majority of Rapturians, who at that point werent Splicing yet but would see the harmful effects on those who did. : '''Jack was coming to ''murder him, and had just torn his way through everything Ryan had to throw at him. : Was it actually ? You dont think Ryan couldnt have drowned Jack, OR sent a fleet of 20 Security bots to exterminate him ?? OR simpler - 50 Splicers at once in a pitched battle/ambush ??? Jack would be dead on the first volley and 'no more problem'. So Ryan didnt do that, and there must THEREFORE be a different reason why. : It was a move for appeasement. Atlas has the population behind him : Did he? how many? How many people who came to Rapture to get away from 'hand out kings' and 'murderous revolutionaries ' do you think actually would want Atlas in charge (or have his rebellion to succeed) ???? People dont like death, destruction and disorder and Atlas was causing those all with capital D's. : McDonagh betrayed Ryan, in Ryan's eyes. ''' : Yeah after he tried to assasinate Ryan. And before that by proposing that utterly STUPID idea of Handing ADAM production to ATLAS. Yes lets give the overriding destructive weapon to the the enemy - a terrorist and murderer and therefore complete rule over Rapture. : '''At that point, he's so paranoid that he can't trust ''anyone'' : Opinion. Is this incident before or after the Kashmir attack? Supposedly virtually noone (public anyway) heard about 'Atlas' before. Ryan sure has confidence in the People of Rapture or why would he bother with all that was going to happen next. Would you trust McDonagh who basiclyy just suggested a full surrender?? When you look at it they (the game authors) made sure Ryans wasnt getting ANY help from those around him (nothing constructive and doing incredibly stupid things for people iin their situation. Conside with McDonagh as one of Ryans 'right hand me' what revolutionaries usually do to the leaders of the opposition when they seize power/ Rememebr what happened to Ryan as a child? To his family murdered by Bolsheviks. Tell me again about this alleged 'paranoia' . : : You seem determined not to like this game. Why? : : No I like the game, I just dont like the illogic/sloppiness of the plot and the unreality of the actions of many of the characters in it. Better writing doesnt cost that much - all it takes is effort and intent. : Testxyz (talk) 10:49, January 11, 2014 (UTC) : When did Smuggling become a capital crime ?? "Despite public protests, Ryan had previously ordered that those convicted of smuggling, an act imperilling Rapture, would be subject to capital punishment, increasingly relying upon naked force to protect his city." "Previously" ? Is it clear anywhere of when that legal change was made - before or after Fontaines 'death' ?? If Fontaine was going to be executed if guilty of smuggling anyway, then why that big deal made about his 'shootout' and dying instead of being arrested? Sullivan is still alive when he talks about quitting over that law change, but it really isnt clear when he dies either. - We see what might be Sullivan's body and it is implied(?') that it was the Culpepper thing that pushed him to a suicide ( '? that is if he wasnt murdered by one of Atlas's thugs or some other reason -- the Rapture novel which has more evidence of a sucide is or isnt canon) Again, all very vague and not clear/authoratative what really happened. Testxyz (talk) 21:15, January 11, 2014 (UTC) "Many people were summarily hanged at a hastily constructed gallows." Implying Ryan did it ?? And what are they labeled with on those gallows ?? "Gene Traitor" as Ive said elsewhere does NOT sound like any of Ryans positions or terminology. We also see that location AFTER Fontaine is now in charge of the city (retribution on Ryan supporters??). Doesnt that make it supposition that Ryan is doing summary mass execution of people in Apollo Square (and where are the bodies stacked like cordwood ?? We see how many there ... 4 ??) https://bioshock.fandom.com/wiki/File:GeneTraitor.png Testxyz (talk) 09:34, January 11, 2014 (UTC) :I disagree. Nothing about that sentence says Ryan specifically orchestrated the hangings, that he tied the noose. Maybe his security men did them, maybe the interred citizens went crazy, who knows. The sentence "many people were summarily hanged at a hastily constructed gallows," is true and speake to the escalating situation in the city. :Maybe they took down the bodies to make room for more. There's plenty of corpses tossed about the Square. When you make 4 gallows instead of just 1, you must have a large amount of victims. :Unownshipper (talk) 00:22, January 12, 2014 (UTC) :When the sentence immediately follows "He also instituted martial law in Apollo Square" what does that imply to you about who is doing the hangings ? :And Gallows are often used to specificly display executed people as a 'warning' about the penalty for the crime they committed (and take place at 'public executions as well) -- so 4 was nothing unusual and we see just the 4 bodies there. Corpses everywhere ? - No more than anywhere else in the game. Noone else seems to cart bodies away, so the stacks of corpses should be around somewhere , no? And If you are just going to kill them to eliminate enemies, shooting them (or clubbing them to death) is so much less trouble (you also have a 'trap' mechanism to facilitate its repeated use). And a 'hastilly constructed gallows' is a rope thrown over some convenient object, not the purpose built thing we see (its pretty fancy for something 'hastily built'). We also see lots of barricades facing outwards from the buildings(the places Atlas's minions are) --- doesnt seem someplace exactly controlled by Ryans men back when they were dumping rebels there. :What about 'Gene Traitor', like I said before I dont recall anything Ryan saying even remotely like that. :Once the 'Pheromone' thing worked/was planned, why would Ryan want to execute any large number of 'generic' minions of Atlas's. And before that why not just kill them directly instead of interning them (seems to me it is to keep them away from the rest of the city where they disrupted/destroyed needed production and services and attacked/terrorized normal people, killing Little Sisters etc..) and he didnt see it neccessay to execute them. :Testxyz (talk) 02:48, January 12, 2014 (UTC) :May want to move this line down to disassociate it with the surrounding lines. Its not really clear WHEN these hangings took place (and who did them or what extent). If they were hung for just supporting Atlas then after 'Pheromones' are in play (we see them after that has happened) why would they still be up. :Testxyz (talk) 14:06, January 12, 2014 (UTC) Makeshift ??? Security Bots ?? Not exactly something you thow together like a potato cannon - which the Grenade Launchers basically are, or the giant super soakers the Chemical Throwers similarly are. Even the Turrets with their 'friend or foe' detection is pretty sophistcated stuff (in the Rapture novel the author tried to justify/explain it with some simpler 'blinker/beeper tag' that Ryans 'authorized' people would wear to not be targets) The flying mechanism and guidance of a Fly-bot is magnitudes more complex . Not quite just using an outboard motor and putting pretty lights and a gun on it. (((Would have been amusing/fun to have the player play a mini-game/experience (Like the LittleSister 'possession' in BS2) flying a Security Fly-Bot around for a while))) Testxyz (talk) 09:55, January 11, 2014 (UTC) :Yes, the turrets and security bots are complex machinery, but they employ some impromptu parts. The bot's apple crate for a ammo magazine and the turret's spinning office chair base. Maybe the security bots used to be escort bots during peaceful times (automated flying thingamajigs that would guide people how to get to places). Things get tough, you need extra help so take an escort bot, an apple crate, and a machine gun (3 things which don't go together) and make a security bot. :The security cameras on the other hand, were clearly built for their intended purpose. :Unownshipper (talk) 23:49, January 11, 2014 (UTC) :No mention of 'escort bots' anywhere (possible they were an existing security system - you break display windows in stores in BS1 and they come ). Assuming 'just thrown together' you have to program the thing for its gunplatform interceptor purpose, which besides getting it to fly is probably the most difficult part of the whole mechanism. Its a bit odd that the least difficult parts to make are the ones kludged from these 'improptu parts' when most of the device is very purpose built. Maybe later by BS2 times when Lambs minions are just patching things together they might start looking like junk real piles. :"security cameras on the other hand" maybe just have a cohesive paint job and are made from flattened tin cans - they certainly get destroyed easy enuf for that to be true (when the vending machines are indestructable) :Testxyz (talk) 02:59, January 12, 2014 (UTC) "Ryan's philosophy of freedom and minimal government interference meant he was slow to interdict Fontaine's growing power and criminal actions." This is a red herring, as 'Ryans Philosophy' was not actually represented properly in the Game. Within HIS philosophy, the people themselves are a greater part of the 'Checks and Balances' for society instead of Government. It was largely NOT his job to "to interdict Fontaine's growing power and criminal actions" as much as the population's to DEMAND that he do so and authorize such actions (and even take their own actions). This was virtually non-existant in the game. Ryan was actually accused of being a tyrant when he finally DID take strong actions, and those actions would have fit in with what the population would want and expect (yet it is presented as if it was all his own motives). Its all a fantasy setup (a strawman supposedly representing capitalism/objectivism) somehow presenting a complex commercial City-sized society running for more than a decade with no laws, no courts, no actual working city council and no participation by the population in such matters. Testxyz (talk) 11:36, January 26, 2014 (UTC) We're OPEN during Civil War. I have seen on several statements on pages of what happened to places during the Civil War, first of all we have almost no info of any place during the civil war except for the usual but nothing specific (of course there is exception: Apollo Square, Dionysus Park etc). Second of all: ITS A WAR! people don't go out to a relaxing spa's or host dinner parties they where in fear of there lives or splicing like crazy! Here's a statement I deleted from Central Square Bistro: *"However, when the Civil War broke out the Bistro became part of a war zone and defenseds to protect the customers were added. One entrance was monitored by a Security Camera, while two Turrets keep watch on two different sides. The Bistro itself was supplied with an El Ammo Bandito vending machine, in case the customers had to fend off the rebels themselves." Heres another one from Adonis Luxury Resort: *"It became harder to reach by its customers once Andrew Ryan put the bathysphere transportation system under lockdown." Who would go out in public and risk there lives just for that? Did you miss the multiplayer? Where the only people outside where deranged housewife's and mad fishermen, or the final of BaSE2, where you see the ocean around Rapture filled with debris as Fin De Siècle Boutiques exploding? Jim: Hey, Mary, going to the big game tonight? I heard Ryan's Raiders are playing. Mary: No way, Jim! It's not safe. Haven't you heard? Atlas' bandits are everywhere. Jim: Hold on a second there! Remember what Andrew Ryan says: if you do that, the bandits win. Take your family to Fort Frolic and Arcadia. Go out and shop. It's the Rapture way of life! I wonder why this was broadcasted? Maybe because no one went out to Fort Frolic and Arcadia and all the businesses closed thanks to that! Sorry for the rant, I'm just tiard of all these speculations (and if this info was from any unknow sourse or the book, then I'm sorry but please put a referance for it next time). Shacob (talk) 22:09, August 6, 2014 (UTC) Some places would have been worse then others. And i'd say some people were in denial about how severe the civil war really was, especially those who survived world war 2 and couldn't face the idea of another war. Night at the Kashmir (talk) 00:01, August 7, 2014 (UTC) Or because Rapture majority HAD been through a real war they said "RYAN just kill that @$%^& terrorist Atlas and his murderous parasite thugs and get things back to normal". Its all a setup for the lame game plot (just like Sinclair allegedly arming Atlas types when HE would be one of the first they killed if they won ... such illogic to justify a MP game.) Some areas were safer than others (with too much security between them and where Atlas's miscreants were hiding), and because Ryan wasnt a tyrant things kept going (more a guerilla war) - Ryan easily could have just sealed and flooded the sections Atlas was known to be holed up in, but wouldnt because of all the other people who would have been killed. There were so many logical things Ryan could easily have done, but it would have interfered with the game writers 'twist' plot -- example : Ryan simply putting a 10000ADAM bounty on Atlas's head (like he WAS SHOWN doing for a minor issue like Jack) - Atlas probably wouldn't have lasted a day after that). 01:39, August 7, 2014 (UTC) I brought the multiplayer up because it represents the Rapture Civil War well, which show that it was insane and yes there is a lot of illogical things in it, like why Sinclair gave weapons to the costumers before the civil war (the only things we can count as canon from that is the characters, multiplayer apartment, war, newspapers(mostly) and plasmids/weapons/tonics(mostly)). Atlas had a "mass of an army" and if Andrew would have chosen to kill Atlas directly, not much would have changed (except for BioShock...good point), it might even have made things worse. I think the plot of BioShock was unexpected and much better then the cliche garbage that is released to day (no offense to any game that might have been offended). --Shacob (talk) 02:24, August 7, 2014 (UTC) SInclair 'gave weapons to the customers' DURING the Civil War ( the two sides -- Ryan's and Atlas's you see). The whole Home Defence Products was for all the people who were wanting to protect themselves from Atlas's terrorists ("lining up for Plasmids around the block" as McDonagh puts it). The Sinclair Solutions Consumer Rewards Program (the setting of the Multiplayer Game) may have only be with limited number of people (he wants to sell it to Rapture's Citizens, not give it all away). Atlas's 'mass of an army' - really how big was it? When splicers run quickly around the street killing people, it doesnt take too many to disrupt everything (normal economy is gone). Possibly with Atlas gone and not supplying them with ADAM they soon wouldnt be using Plasmids for long. In any case, Atlas was pretty much all but beaten (Splicers nullified by the Pheromone thing supposedly) and hiding out by the time Jack arrives. Faked deaths, secret identities and 'Luke I am your Father' ARE cliches. With a little better writing (before they created the expensive and time consuming game assets) it could have been much better. It may simply have been a case of too many things being changed at the last minute (articles about the BS1 production describe that and how they had to rush things after delays). 11:26, August 7, 2014 (UTC) "This also provided Ryan with a place to lock up Splicers who had become too insane to be allowed in public, under the guise that they were working for Fontaine." Why would any subterfuge be neccessary (As this implies) ? If citizens are dangerously insane, public support would BE for them to be locked up for public safety - they would actually demand it. The only question might be if it was used as an excuse to lock people up for other reasons (which there isnt evidence for). 16:07, March 2, 2015 (UTC) :Perhaps it was better to say they were Fontaine's thugs than to reveal to the public that anyone can become mad from Splicing? There wasn't any (or not enough) information related to the real issues of using ADAM in Rapture. Revealing that a part of the Spliced prisoners in Fontaine's were not even related to Rapture's Boogeyman would have certainly halted the sells of Plasmids and Gene Tonics for Ryan. Pauolo (talk) 17:09, March 2, 2015 (UTC) :Would Ryan want more crazy people disrupting his city? So giving a reason for many people to not use it, or to use it less, might be a good thing in Ryan's eyes. Why this insanity problem seems to not be obvious in Rapture (before the Civil War started) when so many people were already using it was never explained. With growing animosity against Fontaine, Ryan might have used the ADAM disease issue against his rival. Did Fontaine still have most of the business (and profits) by 1958... At a certain point, with the problem being known of (at least by Ryan), he would have to look at and decide what all the damage would cost, versus any profits to be made (the authors seem to make him single-minded about just obtaining money, but what good is money in a destroyed city?). : 17:46, March 2, 2015 (UTC) ::That's probably a point which was misunderstood for quite a long time, was Ryan making any profit out of the war? Take the Gatherer's Garden machines: they were another way to recycle ADAM since it ran on raw quantities of the stuff, not an actual way for Ryan to make money out of it. The Civil War was a genetic arm race, and Ryan Industries was actively producing more and more Plasmids for Ryan's side so they needed any ADAM source possible. I can imagine Atlas and his men attacking Little Sisters for their ADAM (which they do, but no mention of them buying their Plasmids at the nearest GG) and making their own bootleg Plasmids instead of giving more ADAM to their enemy, thus explaining the need for "illegal" Plasmid labs such as the one in Siren Alley. Also, I don't remember statements from the game which said that Ryan was actually making a profit out of the war. It's probably time we change the concerned articles.Pauolo (talk) 22:35, March 2, 2015 (UTC) ::- ::Wars are costly besides the destruction/deaths, theres also the disruption of the normal economy and the uncertainty/distraction of the Citizens. Since Ryan's holdings were a large majority of the 'establishment' any 'war profits' would be coming out of his own pocket anyway. ::Somewhere there should have been Atlas's secret Little Sister Farm, where stolen Little SIsters were kept (instead of being killed) to generate new ADAM - you'd probably get alot more that way even without 'Gathering' (unless Atlas/Fontaine somehow had a huge stockpile and didnt really need them and only used that to deny Ryans forces the ADAM). Of course who could he really trust or what place would be safe from Splicer who could probably smell ADAM fro 100 feet away - or Little Sisters flocking towards it. :: 06:56, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :: - :To answer your original question, I think a significant portion of the population WOULD be upset to hear that rather than treating the mentally ill, they were being cast off like a colony of lepers to fight to the death for resources. The citizens of Rapture may subscribe to the ideal of The Great Chain, but these are their friends, neighbors, and countrymen. These people still have their humanity, and this is just barbaric. :On a related note, I really find this whole sentence troubling as I don't see any grounds for it's basis. Where is it suggested that the people in Fontaine's were not working for the smuggling ring? Splicing itself is not a crime, so do we have any proof Ryan locked up your run of the mill "Splicer who had become too insane to be allowed in public" or is the Dept Store's population just composed of Fontaine's cohorts (Spliced or otherwise)? :Unownshipper (talk) 00:57, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :Thats why I usually use the phrase dangerously insane, as too disruptive/dangerous to the ordinary population (too bad we didnt get alot of Newsie evidence of what the unstable Splicers were starting to do (as individuals). There should have been public support for locking them up, even by people with family members/friends as the 'restrained'. Supposedly the Department Store 'Prison' was to be temporary (the way it appears thrown together haphazardly, if the authors much thought about it logically). Containment there for an interim for public safety (the dates used in the story indicate a very short time (upto the BaS present time) even if extended to the 3.5 month from Neptune Bounty Incident). Persephone has its therapy wing so Ryan obviously didnt just discard the affected people. :In any case Fontaine's whole organization wasn't just in the fisheries smuggling but the whole distribution of the goods, the alluded-to extortion he did, the operators of the orphanage child enslavement (and those up the food chain of that illegally generated ADAM, and who knows what other criminal operations). Hundreds of people across Rapture were probably suspect and its likely many were let go as not being involved or had been only under coercion (jails cost money, so would Ryan have a reason to incarcerate people who had only worked for Fontaine...) The numbers (including the corpses) we see in BaSx are only a few dozens. : 06:56, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :I'm basing myself mostly on the fact that most of the personae represented by Splicers at Fontaine's don't fit with the idea of smugglers or shady sellers of contraband items. The mother, the hypochondriac, BaS2 even introduced schoolteachers from Ryan's own preparatory school at Fontaine's. Unless they went all schizophrenic, none of those would have participated in the smuggling ring, apart from buying illegal goods. Also among those Splicers, only Frosties are aware of their predicament and are the only ones for which we can be sure that they worked for or supported Fontaine. Pauolo (talk) 18:55, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :::Pauolo is right, the salesmen, the beauty queen. They seem more like customers or employees of Fontaine's than smugglers or thugs. :::My two-bits, they could have reworked the story along the lines of Ryan locking the Splicers involved in the shoot out (that Ryan Security was able to capture) along with any smugglers and locked them up in the 3rd unknown building while allowing business to run in the rest of the department store. Then maybe, in attempt to rid of that third building alone, something went wrong and instead all three buildings sunk into the cliff with a majority of the employees and customers so then Ryan, in an attempt to salvage his reputation labeled that he publicly showed what happens to parasites in Rapture. After that, what we see left in Fontaine's are said employees and customers fending for themselves, drinking or injecting all the remaining plasmids. Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:02, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :::That would be the worst case scenario if only the 3rd building would have been converted into a prison at first, and no one would have gone shopping next to a prison. Still the way some corpses are displayed in the department store, they look like customers who were attacked on a normal day. Pauolo (talk) 21:25, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :::Its too bad WE are left to try to fit a puzzle together out of very strange evidence. The situation being the result of an accident (with the adjacent theoretical warehouse prison) might have flown. All the people who shouldn't have been there (who Ryan would have avoided as it would cost him endless trouble needlessly) probably are really just the result of quick-and-dirty writing of the DLC with easy-to-place archetypes (the first thing they thought of scrawled on a Denny's napkin) . Its sad to think that with a little consideration/forethought it would NOT have cost them any more to produce the story/game with more plausible details being more carefully composed FIRST. :::Another plausible story (NOT being the strange 'sunk' prison idea ) -- some kind of hostage situation by ex-Fontaine thugs (on the run - wanted for the smuggling), but with Atlas and his new 'rebel' supporters trapped there while inadvertantly attempting to retrieve resouces from his caches/stashes of resources (like a mass of ADAM) ahead of the City investigators searching the place thoroughly. The customers and employees would have thus been caught in the situation and a standoff (thugs demanding to be freed to the surface or kill everyone...) and isolation of the place by Ryan. Atlas playing along/instigating a big mess to make his escape in the confusion. Elizabeth walks into that. ::: 06:51, March 4, 2015 (UTC) ::::That would have made quite an interesting plot, and an original situation for Ryan to be confronted to. Pauolo (talk) 22:58, March 4, 2015 (UTC) "it was separated from the city and sunk to the bottom of sea" : Maybe better as "Separated off to the side of the city" - the in-game pictures show it is really not that far away or too much deeper than the part of the city nearby. As the sea 'bottom' in that area (away from the undersea volcano Rapture is supposedly built on) is about 2000-4500 feet deep. 16:30, March 2, 2015 (UTC) :It's a figure of speech employed by the characters. You don't even see the bottom of it. Pauolo (talk) 17:04, March 2, 2015 (UTC)